(no subject)

[coldblossom.livejournal.com]

Australian here, please tell me you're joking, otherwise you're just an ignorant foreigner.

I have some understanding, some Americans think that the government isn't society, that if you want to get things done you don't just chuck money at the government and hope it gets fixed, the government to them isn't some panacea of solutions.
Once you have a government solution, you have it for everyone, regardless of choice, when you bring in more government you lose choice as resources that would have stayed in the hands of the people going towards providing many various solutions or wants are now funneled into a giant bureaucracy.

This is a fundamental disagreement on how people want to live, it's not just some, OH SIRRY MURRICANS, WHY DO THEY HATE THE POOR>?!?!?
Americans give more than any other people on earth, especially conservatives, they believe that you should help that person on the street but shouldn't force another person to pay for that help, they do "care for each other", they just don't think you should have government to direct that "care".

I'm not arguing for either side, I'm just tying to show the other side instead of all these overly simplified bullshit answers.. You can find this out if you just like... go to /r/conservative or /r/libertarian in a matter of minutes... It took me under an hour to find out the argument.

[link]

I just loved how this Australian was able to so clearly articulate conservative America's issues with socialized healthcare/socialism to this English....twit....who opened the thread with the (ohsotired) meme of "WHY DO AMERICANS HATE POOR PEOPLE?" Also liked the "DO THE RESEARCH" zing.

Go over there if your blood pressure is feeling low and needs a lift. In the same thread there is this:

It's not your time and money, attained by you in isolation. It's time and money granted to you on the back of infrastructure built and maintained by the people. Roads, regulation, police, etc., are all required for you to be able to have time and money to do with what you will.
Each society decides what the basic requirements of its people are and then demands that each person contributes according to their means, mostly through tax. Most people don't question paying taxes to maintain roads, though obviously some do. And you'll pay for police to stop your neighbour from robbing you. But the US seems to draw a strange line at health care.
Health care is then just another public service, supporting the baseline of society. You wouldn't give out about a policeman protecting someone from a mugging even if they paid no taxes. Giving out about public health-care seems equally bizarre from a european perspective.
TL;DR: The same thing everyone else has been saying in this thread.

[link]

Someone was at Obama's "you didn't build that!" speech. Or maybe it was at E. Warren's? Either way, its a bit alarming to think that argument might be catching on, because the concept of private property, of ownership of one's time and the fruits of one's labor, is a bit central to our way of life...

Comments

[brendala.livejournal.com]

It also bugs the crap out of me when left wingers dismiss our views with the ridiculous claim that we simply "hate poor/brown people and want to see them DIE". There are valid arguments to be made both for and against Universal Health Care (or whatever you want to call it). But nobody can have a reasoned debate when both sides are too dense to see where the other is coming from.

Personally, I'm torn on the issue. Having dealt with poverty and the bullshit that insurance companies put people through; I can see the appeal of just having a government agency take care of it. After all, shitty healthcare is better than going bankrupt because you have a pre-existing condition and nobody will cover you for less than $500 per month.

On the other hand, I've worked for government agencies. I know first hand how much that bureaucracy complicates even the simplest of things and makes it nigh impossible to get things done quickly and efficiently. And I shudder at the thought of some of my old FEMA supervisors having ANY control of my medical care whatsoever!



tl;dr this is a complex issue. And it's really hard to discuss complex issues when someone keeps accusing you of homicidal tendencies toward poor people. :P

[foodsthatcan.livejournal.com]

It can be a very difficult issue at the personal level, but IMO the solution is giving everyone MORE choice, MORE options to find something that best fits their needs, as opposed to turning everything over to the government and issuing a one-size-fits-all mandate. Let's see, we're a nation of 300+ million, of COURSE the government is the best solution for handling the diverse personal issues of health care!

/facepalm

[brendala.livejournal.com]

I agree that private solutions should be explored before we considering handing anything over to the government. Part of the reason California health care sucks is because the state doesn't allow out of state competition. So people who need private insurance have about 3 companies to choose from and those companies are free to suck because they have so few competitors.

[rainynights.livejournal.com]

I agree with this! The more options that people have the better! I would love to see people be able to buy insurance across state lines.

I deal with military health care constantly, it's crap. I don't wish this on anyone. I also live in Belgium currently where you see social health care at it's worst. I don't know how people say Belgium's healthcare is top notch, because from what I've experienced it's not. We were in the ER with my son for this massive case of hives and there was a man literally bleeding all over the place laying on the FLOOR with an IV hooked up to him and they left him there for a good 45 mins before they took him away. They hospitalized my son, refused to tell me what they were giving him, why they were taking blood, what tests they were running, etc. etc. They wouldn't speak to us because we don't speak French. I tried my best but I am not fluent. Finally I went off on them, called our base doctor and called the American Embassy. I am tired of being treated like crap because we are Americans in this stupid country. I tried my best to be nice and when that didn't work I just lost it because my child was laying in a hospital from the cold war era with 1980s equipment and I was being treated like dirt.

With Universal healthcare what happens to medical research? The reason people pour money into it, is because there is money to be made. So what happens when the gov't takes over healthcare? Also with our country drowning in our ever growing deficit how can we afford to dabble in everyone's healthcare? Now that it's been labeled a tax I really hope Congress will over turn it or at least make it so it can't be implemented. I really fear for our country. Being overseas you get a fresh perspective and get to see it from Europe's eyes and it's not pretty.