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[coldblossom.livejournal.com]

Australian here, please tell me you're joking, otherwise you're just an ignorant foreigner.

I have some understanding, some Americans think that the government isn't society, that if you want to get things done you don't just chuck money at the government and hope it gets fixed, the government to them isn't some panacea of solutions.
Once you have a government solution, you have it for everyone, regardless of choice, when you bring in more government you lose choice as resources that would have stayed in the hands of the people going towards providing many various solutions or wants are now funneled into a giant bureaucracy.

This is a fundamental disagreement on how people want to live, it's not just some, OH SIRRY MURRICANS, WHY DO THEY HATE THE POOR>?!?!?
Americans give more than any other people on earth, especially conservatives, they believe that you should help that person on the street but shouldn't force another person to pay for that help, they do "care for each other", they just don't think you should have government to direct that "care".

I'm not arguing for either side, I'm just tying to show the other side instead of all these overly simplified bullshit answers.. You can find this out if you just like... go to /r/conservative or /r/libertarian in a matter of minutes... It took me under an hour to find out the argument.

[link]

I just loved how this Australian was able to so clearly articulate conservative America's issues with socialized healthcare/socialism to this English....twit....who opened the thread with the (ohsotired) meme of "WHY DO AMERICANS HATE POOR PEOPLE?" Also liked the "DO THE RESEARCH" zing.

Go over there if your blood pressure is feeling low and needs a lift. In the same thread there is this:

It's not your time and money, attained by you in isolation. It's time and money granted to you on the back of infrastructure built and maintained by the people. Roads, regulation, police, etc., are all required for you to be able to have time and money to do with what you will.
Each society decides what the basic requirements of its people are and then demands that each person contributes according to their means, mostly through tax. Most people don't question paying taxes to maintain roads, though obviously some do. And you'll pay for police to stop your neighbour from robbing you. But the US seems to draw a strange line at health care.
Health care is then just another public service, supporting the baseline of society. You wouldn't give out about a policeman protecting someone from a mugging even if they paid no taxes. Giving out about public health-care seems equally bizarre from a european perspective.
TL;DR: The same thing everyone else has been saying in this thread.

[link]

Someone was at Obama's "you didn't build that!" speech. Or maybe it was at E. Warren's? Either way, its a bit alarming to think that argument might be catching on, because the concept of private property, of ownership of one's time and the fruits of one's labor, is a bit central to our way of life...

Comments

[brendala.livejournal.com]

It also bugs the crap out of me when left wingers dismiss our views with the ridiculous claim that we simply "hate poor/brown people and want to see them DIE". There are valid arguments to be made both for and against Universal Health Care (or whatever you want to call it). But nobody can have a reasoned debate when both sides are too dense to see where the other is coming from.

Personally, I'm torn on the issue. Having dealt with poverty and the bullshit that insurance companies put people through; I can see the appeal of just having a government agency take care of it. After all, shitty healthcare is better than going bankrupt because you have a pre-existing condition and nobody will cover you for less than $500 per month.

On the other hand, I've worked for government agencies. I know first hand how much that bureaucracy complicates even the simplest of things and makes it nigh impossible to get things done quickly and efficiently. And I shudder at the thought of some of my old FEMA supervisors having ANY control of my medical care whatsoever!



tl;dr this is a complex issue. And it's really hard to discuss complex issues when someone keeps accusing you of homicidal tendencies toward poor people. :P

[foodsthatcan.livejournal.com]

It can be a very difficult issue at the personal level, but IMO the solution is giving everyone MORE choice, MORE options to find something that best fits their needs, as opposed to turning everything over to the government and issuing a one-size-fits-all mandate. Let's see, we're a nation of 300+ million, of COURSE the government is the best solution for handling the diverse personal issues of health care!

/facepalm

[brendala.livejournal.com]

I agree that private solutions should be explored before we considering handing anything over to the government. Part of the reason California health care sucks is because the state doesn't allow out of state competition. So people who need private insurance have about 3 companies to choose from and those companies are free to suck because they have so few competitors.

[rainynights.livejournal.com]

I agree with this! The more options that people have the better! I would love to see people be able to buy insurance across state lines.

I deal with military health care constantly, it's crap. I don't wish this on anyone. I also live in Belgium currently where you see social health care at it's worst. I don't know how people say Belgium's healthcare is top notch, because from what I've experienced it's not. We were in the ER with my son for this massive case of hives and there was a man literally bleeding all over the place laying on the FLOOR with an IV hooked up to him and they left him there for a good 45 mins before they took him away. They hospitalized my son, refused to tell me what they were giving him, why they were taking blood, what tests they were running, etc. etc. They wouldn't speak to us because we don't speak French. I tried my best but I am not fluent. Finally I went off on them, called our base doctor and called the American Embassy. I am tired of being treated like crap because we are Americans in this stupid country. I tried my best to be nice and when that didn't work I just lost it because my child was laying in a hospital from the cold war era with 1980s equipment and I was being treated like dirt.

With Universal healthcare what happens to medical research? The reason people pour money into it, is because there is money to be made. So what happens when the gov't takes over healthcare? Also with our country drowning in our ever growing deficit how can we afford to dabble in everyone's healthcare? Now that it's been labeled a tax I really hope Congress will over turn it or at least make it so it can't be implemented. I really fear for our country. Being overseas you get a fresh perspective and get to see it from Europe's eyes and it's not pretty.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

I find it best to go Rand on them. "Ok, if it's built by the public, then let the public finance and run my business. Let the public do my research. What's that? You need me to do it?"

Or, if I REALLY want to have fun, I suggest that, if my time and effort aren't my own, what else isn't? Maybe we also don't have rights to our own bodies (shaes of Obamacare). Maybe we should mandate companionship for the romantically challenged - have the government "tax" women their time and bodies to go over and spend it with some lonely geek. After all, if we're just part of a system, what does it matter?

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

"Maybe we should mandate companionship for the romantically challenged - have the government "tax" women their time and bodies to go over and spend it with some lonely geek."

Actually, that was part of the original soviet plan. Read Trotsky, they were planning on arranging "scientific marriages", And of course, there was hitler's (national socialism) aryan eugenics program.

Those aren't exactly "equality of jigginess", but they *are* government demanding that women give it up according to government edicts.

[patriot-jackie.livejournal.com]

LOL Completely extreme yet parallel: your contentions deserve a round of applause!

[oronoda.livejournal.com]

I am glad to see that Australian gets it. But then again, Australians have that pioneering spirit similar to Americans.

I really hate that you didn't build that mentality. I look at it like... it was my choice to go to college. My choice to take out few loans and just end up going to school longer while toiling away in the campus cafeteria being mocked by other students. It was my choice to enlist in the army and it was me who went through basic. Not everyone survives basic because it has to do with attitude. I served for four years honning my own skills. When I got out, because of my choices, I have a nice job in DC.

While yeah, Drill Sergeants, dedicated NCOs and officers helped me on my journey, it was my choice and my attitude that was the foundation of my success.

[ladyofavalon77.livejournal.com]

Nice to see someone stand up for our beliefs :D

[patriot-jackie.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Romney by any stretch, but I did love his comeback the other day to this "you didn't build that" garbage.

He said that when you as a student or your child gets on the honor roll for their grades, he understands that there was a school bus driver who took that student to school over preexisting roads. He understands that. But! That doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that the school bus driver is responsible for that student's grades! He had another example that I forget off the top of my head, but I thought it was brilliant! In a matter of one sentence, he had completely destroyed the point through it's own absolute absurdity.

Seriously, if the man keeps talking like that, I may actually vote for him. - Or rather his words, because I don't trust any politician to do what they say anymore.

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

This Aussie really gets it. The other comment? Well, yeah, basically lifted right from Obama's "You didn't build that!" meme. It really bugs me how some (so many?) people have such blind faith in the government.

I got into an argument with a friend-of-a-friend over healthcare. My friend had posted this meme in her LJ about a year and a half ago begging the House republicans not to get rid of Obamacare... Wish I could remember what it was all about. I was polite in my comment (and friend was polite back), but her friend from New Zealand started ranting at me about how we have so many people dying in the streets and how her country's healthcare is so much better. She said she read the Obamacare bill and didn't like it (I guess she didn't think it went far enough). She then mentioned that she had a friend here who had cancer and couldn't get treatment because of some insurance loophole. So I guess I could see why she was so emotional about it, though I think screaming "people are dying in the streets!!" is a bit over the top. I don't know a whole lot about NZ's healthcare apart from what she told me (apparently they *don't* have big waiting lists for procedures? Or there's some way you can avoid that?). All I know is that it's socialized medicine and on the whole I still prefer our system.

To make this more about government, I didn't want to get into specifics with her too much about Obamacare, so I just said that I have little trust in government as it is. She didn't have an answer to that and the conversation ended.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

New zealand... well, they have a *miniscule* population, and a great deal of natural resources. They are a major tourism destination, and a final destination for a lot of global wealthy.

They actaully *do* have pretty good healthcare... at the moment. They are running budget deficits on the order of 10% GDP, which means that they will be doing the greece thing in a *very* few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NZ_Govt_debt_1990-2011.svg

Not promising.


This is one of the things that is always a little.... perturbing about liberals from temporary countries, they talk about all the wonderful things that they really *can't* pay for, and act all superior about the fact that they are bankrupting themselves and consigning their older selves and their posterities to poverty, misery, and death. That doesn't really seem like "morally superior" to me, it seems like the behavior of spoiled playboy children.

[jessm78.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info. Doesn't seem too bad, actually. But yeah, the near future doesn't look too good...

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

I don't know very much about New Zealand's system but I do know it has a very small population. I doubt you wait very long for anything. However, I don't see people riding leaky boats across the vast Pacific to take advantage of cutting edge Kiwi health care.

[jenny-wildcat.livejournal.com]

Okay, that was brilliant. Love to Australia! :)

I really hate this whole idea that government fixes everything and will make everyone's lives absolutely perfect because it's just not true. Anytime government tries to fix something for one group of people, another group of people gets totally screwed (but that's okay because that other group are terrible, horrible baby-eaters who kick puppies and small rocks). You can't have a one-size-fits-all system for a whole country - I don't care if you're talking about the United States or some little European cookie-crumb on the French border. You've got too many people who want different things and you'll go broke trying to please everyone. Plus, government "help" usually involves higher taxes for everyone and nobody likes that.

On the flip side - like our Australian friend so astutely pointed out, Americans are awesome with their charitable giving. I have never heard a person complain about CHOOSING to freely give of time and/or money to help someone in need. More often than not, the needy person is in the same community and they can relate to each other and make the help much more personable. Individuals can and do care for each other a whole lot better than a huge, impersonal government entity ever will.