MOD POST: Dear Liberal Members

[sopdetly.livejournal.com]

When I spotted the 100+ comments on the post about the "Ground Zero Mosque", I figured I should peek in there. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I saw that it has grown to such a size because of a few non-right-wing characters who think that this is debate.

THIS COMM IS NOT debate. NOR IS IT conservatism. OR ANY OTHER REGULAR POLITICAL COMM.

This comm was created as a place where right-wing fanfolks could talk politics and not be forced to listen to left-wing yammering, as we have have to do practically everywhere else in fandom. It is not meant to encourage debate between the sides. I hesitate to call it a "safe space", but people don't join this comm to get the kind of arguments that you are providing in that post (and perhaps others of which I am unaware).

I'm not calling you trolls, and I am not (at this time) banning anyone. We do have open membership, and I know that there are less-incendiary liberals watching who either just want to laugh quietly to themselves or honestly want to understand our POVs.

But I want it clear that if you have come to "correct" our posters, "enlighten" us to facts, or otherwise engage us in debate, you are not welcome. (This goes doubly for those who I see are members of a comm whose purpose seems to be to bitch about right-wingers. Do your bitching there, don't bring it here.)

There are plenty of other places where your debate is welcome, and the mods here at TRF respectfully ask that you keep it there and out of this comm. The vast majority of us are right-wing here and we have enough difference in opinion on issues to keep things lively enough without having to defend our positions to the left-wing.

Thank you.

ETA: I know at some point in the history of this comm, there was verbiage similar to this in spirit in the comm's userinfo. At some point it was removed, but this comm was never not intended to be this kind of place. I have added some of this back to the post to make that more clear. If you came here genuinely under the impression that good-natured debate was welcome, I hope you will respect this clarification.

ETA 2: And if you're not even a member and you come in a week later to bitch about the purpose of this comm, you're banned. Simple as that.

Comments

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

You called me out over in the “Ground Zero Mosque” post, and I want to ask a clarifying point. I do not want to troll, and as I said there I will gladly apologize and step back if I've crossed the line.

I'm a mostly lurking liberal, who comments occasionally. There (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1262081.html?thread=13749505#t13749505) and in other (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1262081.html?thread=13749505#t13749505) previous (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1116352.html?thread=11880128#t11880128) discussions (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1258180.html?thread=13695940#t13695940) in the comm I have commented only in response to posts and comments about liberals' thinking, describing what liberals think without arguing that we are, in fact, correct. In the ensuing exchanges I've tried to also respond to comments and questions in reply in that same spirit. I have received some positive feedback (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1119982.html?thread=11905262#t11905262) for speaking with this voice. But if my “reporting not debating” distinction is hairsplitting too fine for the standards of the comm, I defer to the judgment of the mods—it's your forum.

I've also made occasional other (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1116352.html?thread=11865024#t11865024) comments (http://community.livejournal.com/therightfangirl/1205114.html?thread=13124218#t13124218) which I tried to keep in the spirit of the forum, which I hope are welcome. When I do so, I flag myself as a liberal if I think it's relevant that I not implicitly misidentify myself. Again, I hope that this is welcome; if not, I apologize and will stop.

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in...Personally, I have found you respectful and open to discussion -- not eager to debate and demean anyone. Sure, I may not agree with you at times, but that doesn't mean that you're a troll or that your opinion is invalid or unwelcomed. (It also helps that you've been active for quite a few months and you have been respectful throughout and not stirring up conflict.)

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

Thanks much for the kind word. (Likewise to you, kimana83.) I'm heartened to hear that I've achieved the voice that I was trying to have. I've had some exchanges here that I felt were fruitful. But of course they must also be true to the intent of the forum, and on that point I defer to the judgment of the mods.

[herrw.livejournal.com]

If I may chime in, you seem to mirror my own views in many respects, and I've taken the time to read through your own posts (although without commenting, as I'm a bit shy about just chiming-in without introduction). I would ask if you consider yourself a progressive liberal, a classic liberal, or (like me) a Laissez-Faire Liberal?

Oh, and if I've ever posted in such a way that anyone feels offended, please let me know.

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

I usually summarize my politics as “social democrat and civil libertarian,” but “progressive liberal” will do. Compared to many progressives I have a stronger preference for incentivized markets rather than direct regulation: f'rinstance, I like carbon taxes more than efficiency regulation, and prefer housing subsidies to rent control.

[herrw.livejournal.com]

Wow. Y'know...

No, I'm not going to break into debate here :) At some point, we'll probably discuss things in detail, and I'm sure we'll both be very rational and respectful of each other, lol. However, given the nature of this particular post, I'll let that go :)

Laissez-Faire and Progressivism are about as far apart as liberalism and conservativism. There's middle ground, but not much to stand on :)

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

Aye, that would be good, but therightfangirl is the wrong place for it, and this post is extra double the wrong place for it ...

[kimana83.livejournal.com]

I also agree that you do well here. It's the other liberals here who have gotten a bit obnoxious. When you disagree with me I don't usually respond because I don't enjoy debate, but I don't mind your response.

[tulleskirt.livejournal.com]

Just jumping in to say that I too am fine with you being here. You're eloquent and respectful and never seem to seek to "enlighten" anyone.

[sopdetly.livejournal.com]

Hi! I responded to you mostly because you actually raised the question of what you thought the "ethic" was, and I wanted to clarify for you. I didn't mean to single you out as a lone troublemaker! (In fact, you seemed to be the calmest of the bunch, which certainly is appreciated.)

I, personally and not as a mod, don't think that getting clarification on what the left's position on something actually is is so terrible (though I'm sure just as often as we don't share a single position as a group, the left suffers the same disparity, so claiming a single position might be just as bad as it is for us to assume a different single position), but I can also see how some members here—especially those who do see this to be a "safe space" or "refuge" from other political talk—might find that to antagonistic still, and get defensive in a kneejerk reaction.

As a mod, I would just recommend you tread carefully, and be prepared to back down if someone isn't taking your thoughts easily. If dealing with someone who has reacted badly to you before (or perhaps someone with whom you've never dealt), maybe ask if they'd like to hear your side first? Presuming, of course, that you don't do that anyway. Just a, "That's an interesting thing you said; I have a different perspective on it from a left-wing POV if you would like to hear it?" could be enough to keep the tension down. (TBH, that is something I've had to do myself.)

The key to the whole thing is that we're not expecting to have liberals engage us in discussion here, so when we do have that happen, it is something we need to adjust to. The unfortunate fact is that others (in that post and in others in the past) tend to barge in without consideration for what this comm is, and are argumentative and disrespectful from the start, assuming that we're just like "every other" political group on LJ that welcomes debate in various forms.

Clearly, given those who commented before I was able to put in my thoughts, you are seen in a positive light, so I really don't see that there will be any trouble with you continuing to hang around. Frankly, the fact that you are concerned that you stepped out of bounds makes you FAR more welcome than most non-right-wing folks we've seen over the years! :)

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

Thanks to all for the kind words, and to sopdetly for taking time to respond at length.

I am comforted that it seems that your recommendations are pretty consistent with the voice that I've tried to use in this forum.

Speaking less as a lefty than as a veteran of online forums: given the need for this mod post, and the direction the community has taken, may I suggest that it's probably time to update the userinfo? There's been a lot more explicitly political discussion than I suspect y'all imagined when the userinfo was originally written, and the lack of standards for political talk opens a door to trouble ... not only from lefties dropping in but also from conservative commenters who may not serve the tenor you'd like to have here.

Apropos of which, I think your comment from before “I want it clear that if you have come to ‘correct’ our posters, ‘enlighten’ us to facts, or otherwise engage us in debate, you are not welcome” may not quite say what you mean --- especially if I can be counted a well-behaved liberal visitor to this space, having violated all three of those injunctions. I couldn't tell you what the distinction here really is --- I doubt it's just me using some polite language --- but it may be worth exploring.

just as often as we don't share a single position as a group, the left suffers the same disparity

Nah, we all get our opinions from a daily newsletter that ensures we're all in line. :^D

More seriously, this is a big part of why I stick my nose in a few conservative fora. It's good to not see folks with differing views as a monolithic block, so I like seeing what y'all talk about ... and in turn I find it hard to resist at least clarifying where folks with my inclinations are coming from, even knowing that I won't change anyone's mind and would be rude to try, which often includes outlining differences between various schools on the left.

[sopdetly.livejournal.com]

given the need for this mod post, and the direction the community has taken, may I suggest that it's probably time to update the userinfo?

Funny you should say that, because I had sworn that the words "this is not debate" were in our userinfo. I see that they aren't now, but I know that in the original wording, it did say that. I can't imagine why I took that part out when I updated them some time ago, but I do plan to add that back.

Here's what I see. I see 4 people in that other post who are liberal and members of a certain comm that does suggest an intent in its members being here to stir up trouble. I see 3 of them engaging in long-threaded, antagonistic arguing with my members. I see 1 who makes more eloquent and polite comments, and who is thanked and reassured in this post. I don't know what the difference is, exactly, but you clearly conduct yourself differently to the others, and that makes you welcome despite all the similarities to the others.

Perhaps it's that you expect us to be different and are interested in what makes us tick. Personally, I am far more open to those who are willing to find out from me what I believe, and I am careful to give them the same courtesy. When someone comes at me, though, just to tell me that I'm wrong, that all conservatives are wrong and here's why... that puts me off for some reason! LOL.

Nah, we all get our opinions from a daily newsletter that ensures we're all in line.

LOL! Man, I am still waiting for my gay agenda. Hey, maybe your people can get in touch with my people and get one sent out to me? ;)

[foxfire74.livejournal.com]

It's good to not see folks with differing views as a monolithic block,

Which is why I read novels by Sheri S. Tepper, despite the fact that she's written two out of the three books that I've ever thrown across the room. :D