I think my give-a-darn may be broken

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

I am seriously considering backing out of any more debate about health care because I don't want to be associated with the shameful behavior of those who are bent on disrupting town hall meetings. Either the Democrats are going to let you have you say or they're not, people, but shouting them down only solidifies their impression that you're crackpots or shills for the corporations.

Also, my online debates are sapping me of the will to live. People are SO prone to over-react and nitpick and set up straw men to knock down and cherry pick the most extreme examples and exaggerate and well, reductio ad absurdum. I am including myself in this, unfortunately. I'm not proud of some of the things I've said in the heat of a scorching exchange, and I think maybe it's time to back away and cool down. My opinions haven't changed, I just need to quit bashing my head against the wall. Many times I get so mad I could just bite a dog in the butt (and isn't that a colorful Southern phrase?), which surely is not good for my health. And seeing as I'm currently stuck in Canada's single-payer nightmare, I don't need any more health problems! :-)

I suppose some people will think I'm a traitor because I don't support the protesters, but I am heartily sick of the incivility of our current political climate. I completely understand and sympathize with the anger, fear, and righteous indignation that fuels these protests, but I also believe rudeness destroys credibility. People are defending their bad behavior by saying they're only doing what the Democrats did when Bush was in charge. Well, yeah. Were you swayed by their tactics? Are you proud to be acting like the people you despise?

Truth is, every viewpoint has a whole lot of reasonable, sincere people and every viewpoint also has a few vocal idiots. I just wish we could put the latter into a big old tub of Jello to duke it out so the rest of us could have a civil conversation.

Comments

[tingilya.livejournal.com]

shouting them down only solidifies their impression that you're crackpots or shills for the corporations

Who cares?

People are defending their bad behavior by saying they're only doing what the Democrats did when Bush was in charge. Well, yeah. Were you swayed by their tactics? Are you proud to be acting like the people you despise?

You think some old people raising their voices because the person with the mic is trying to out-shout them is the same thing as Code Pink or the folks who vandalize and block entrance to military recruiting offices? Alrighty, then.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

Who cares?

I guess it depends on whether you want to persuade people to your point of view or simply vent your spleen.

You think some old people raising their voices because the person with the mic is trying to out-shout them is the same thing as Code Pink or the folks who vandalize and block entrance to military recruiting offices? Alrighty, then.

They are not the same. They are all, however, rude. And characterizing some of the screaming, chanting protesters who won't let their representatives speak as mere "old people raising their voices" is disingenuous. See my comment above about the straw man.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

I guess I've missed this sort of thing. I'm no fan of shouting in general. I'm actually more sensitive to it than others might be, simply because that's the sort of family I grew up in.

But all I've seen so far are people holding their own while they've been the ones shouted down and/or lied to. If someone stands up there with a microphone and starts spouting off lie after lie, I think it's appropriate to interrupt and stop them. I'm not saying you have to go on a swearing or name calling rampage.

Remember, these politicians so far have shown that they have no desire to listen to their people. Perhaps there are exceptions, but this is not a situation where they want to have a sincere dialogue and listen to the concerns of the people. This is a situation where these politicians are smirking at people, calling them Nazis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGRUx2b0ArM), outright lying about them being paid to go to these town hall meetings/protests. In that sort of situation, being meek is not going to cut it. They will run over you. That's what they want.

[fi-harkness.livejournal.com]

I second this.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

Perhaps so. But I think it would be better to let them have their say and then challenge them, rather than try to shout over them. You can't complain that your free speech rights are being violated and simultaneously shout down somebody else's speech.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Like I said, all I've seen so far is what I've described, not what you have. It would be interesting to see the ratio of one to the other. It's certainly not a reason to just give up.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

I'm not giving up; I'm more than willing to discuss it with people if they ask. I've just decided to stop trying to convince those unwilling to listen. I've had my say. Any more feels like simultaneously beating a dead horse and bashing my head into the wall.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

I've just decided to stop trying to convince those unwilling to listen.

True, that. Sanity should always come first. And this issue is certainly enough to make anyone nuts.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen a lot of outright rudeness, but maybe I haven't been following closely enough. I do think the protests I've seen have been justified. But no shouts of "traitor" here, ccr1138. :-) You're entitled to your opinion.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

The blogosphere has been full of videos of town hall meetings being disrupted by people shouting over their (Democratic) representatives and not letting them talk. It's also pretty clear the Democrats are trying to stifle conservative voices by choosing small venues and then packing the halls with their own people. I don't know if there are any situations where the congresspeople are given a chance to speak, and then citizens are given a chance to speak and ask questions in an orderly manner. If anyone has video of this, it would be great to see.

My policy has always been that you must listen before you talk, because if you don't let people have their say, they won't be inclined to hear your POV. Now, I'm not saying the Democrats have any real interest in hearing the conservative arguments. However, if the conservatives show up in great numbers and state their case in a respectful way, it's a whole lot harder to discount them as fringe nutcases. Politicians aren't complete idiots. If huge numbers of their constituents take the time to show up to a meeting and voice opposition, they'll sit up and take notice. I'm thinking many of them also have doubts about the plan they're being asked to support. But treating them shamefully isn't the way to make them see our side of the story.

[autumnjoy.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think there's a world of difference between going berserk and raising your voice to try to make it heard over all the ones rising to silence you. I'm not saying that going on a rampage is going to help anything, but I don't think meekly backing down from antagonism and lying down to be steam-rolled by insult helps anything either.

Also, judging by my own experience and a lot of first hand accounts, I don't think the behavior that you're describing is nearly as prevalent or as one-sided as the media it making it look like. Conservatives aren't the only ones shouting -- they're just the only ones that are getting the press for doing it.

That's just my viewpoint, though, and I'm certainly not calling you a traitor for sticking to your own principles. :)

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

Oh, I absolutely believe we're being shown a skewed picture by the media.

[ninepointfivemm.livejournal.com]

If that's a Southern phrase, it's certainly not one I've heard. (And my family's been Southern since the 1600s.)

Personally, I'm really tired of people in power saying things like, "We're doing what's GOOD for you, not what you WANT for you," which, to me, is an abuse of power.

If you want to stay out of it, stay out of it. You are not obligated to do anything.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

I've only been Southern since 1962 (born in Tennessee, raised in Alabama, settled in Texas), but I daresay these colorful phrases are regional. I never heard "cold as a witch's tit in a brass bra," either, but it's features in How to Speak Southern -- a book I highly recommend!

And yeah, I don't think the founders intended for congressional bureaucrats to become our nannies.

[ninepointfivemm.livejournal.com]

I've heard the witch's tit one. My grandparents would never say that, as they were much too genteel (one Georgian and one North Carolinian), but my 2nd cousin uses it every once in a while.

I think this healthcare thing is a total mess. I'd like to take no part of it, but the best I can do is say, "Please do not do this, I do NOT want this program."

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Sorry if you don't like us speaking up in the only way we can. But we certainly won't stop.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

It's not the only way. Far from it. You prove my point, that people exaggerate to try to "win" and it only serves to discredit them.

Marches, sit-ins, petitions, ad campaigns, email and phone blitzes ... there are many ways to make your voice heard that don't involve acting like jackasses.

[peacenlove2332.livejournal.com]

"Marches, sit-ins, petitions, ad campaigns, email and phone blitzes ... there are many ways to make your voice heard that don't involve acting like jackasses."


exaaaactly

[tingilya.livejournal.com]

AMEN.