Do people even LISTEN to themselves?

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Just venting here. I wrote a little AU fic about Finch and Grace on Person of Interest. (For the uninitiated, Finch and Reese are the crimefighting heroes on the show; Grace is the fiancee from whom Finch was tragically separated. I got them back together and married them off.) From one reader, I get this review:

"I am a staunch Finch/Reese person. With their experiences & personalities, a normal boy/girl relationship for more than a night isn't likely - sort of PTSD for soldiers or the way long term police are..it's hard to get close to them."

Though she signed with her screenname, she used the anon review function, so I was able to delete this. But had I published it and responded, here are a couple of things I'd have pointed out:

1. As the daughter of a Vietnam vet who's soon to celebrate his 46th wedding anniversary, I can tell you firsthand that her characterization of soldiers and their relationships is so much horse hockey. My dad had his share of traumatic experiences, and it was really hard on both my parents, but by the grace of God (as they both put it) they made it. So have millions of other military couples. And police couples, for that matter. It's an insult to say it's not possible.

2. Is she saying that damaged people are destined to turn gay? Is that supposed to be complimentary to gays? It's been made very clear that both Finch and Reese have had heterosexual relationships in the past, and in fact, they're both still carrying a torch for the women they lost. So if they're gay now, in her formulation, that could only mean the trauma of their lives did it to them.

3. And finally, what is with people who aren't just content to make up their own slash, but have to go around telling writers of relationships established by the show that they're wrong?? (Don't even get me started on all the fic writers who got mad at this show for not following the Finch/Reese template they wanted!)

Honestly . . . the mind reels.

Comments

[allisnow.livejournal.com]

PoI fandom is full of weirdos ;)

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Yeah . . . I've noticed that. And it's strange, because it's SUCH a good show! It's awfully disheartening when you want to have a good discussion about the show and it takes a kinky turn. (To be fair, that doesn't always happen, but it happens often enough to bug me!)

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

ALL fandoms are like that!

[neverfading.livejournal.com]

I know I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this, even here in this community, but...slash and the mindset behind it are utterly bizarre and twisted, in so many ways.

No matter where you stand on real-world issues involving homosexuality and gay people, I think that if you look closely, you will see that slash and the people who write it/promote it/love it have some unrealistic and unhealthy ideas about relationships.

TBH, I could write pages and pages about this, so I'll stop here and maybe come back after I've gathered my thoughts into a coherent argument.

EDIT: Oh, and here's the million-dollar question which I've never seen any slash-fan answer: if homosexuality is perfectly normal, ordinary, and unremarkable, then why do they find it so fascinating and titillating?

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

You won't be the only one getting flak, because I agree. When people can't look at any two characters without picturing a sexual relationship -- which seems to be how it is for an increasing number of fanfic writers -- it disturbs me. It's like the people C. S. Lewis wrote about who don't understand anything about real friendship and therefore posit a sexual basis for all friendships. It's such an impoverished worldview, because it eliminates the variety and complexity of human relationships and boils them all down to one thing.

[theidolhands.livejournal.com]

Having spent time in fandom and having tried to be very open-minded, you still won't find me disagreeing! Also, I get ranty-pants about how a person has a right to fantasy perhaps, but they do not have a right to confuse that with real life.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Great question, and one that I hadn't thought of!

*notes*

[brendala.livejournal.com]

I know I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this, even here in this community, but...slash and the mindset behind it are utterly bizarre and twisted, in so many ways.

I agree. There is a difference between shipping two characters of the same sex because you think they're compatible and shipping two people of the same sex just because of some yaoi/yuri fetish.


Also, I know a lot of gay people who get seriously annoyed by the way twits like yaoi fangirls fetishize gayness into just another thing to squee over and act as if they're civil rights pioneers just because they draw naughty boy/boy fanart.

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

No flack from me. I've been in the fan fic game for 20 years and I've always hated slash. It's as though slash fans are only interested in the sex and potential for sex among people. They can't fathom an interesting, caring, loving relationship that's completely platonic. Women almost never fare well in slash because they "get in the way." (I also think many of these slashers envy the beautiful actresses who are paired up with the men.) At least the women writing K/S in the '70s were actually interested in writing a good story even if the concept is corrupt. Take a gander at the stuff on WTF Fan Fiction and behold the horrors perpetrated by sickos just writing filth that doesn't even make sense. You'd think they'd at least take the time to research on how homosexual acts are done but then again, they don't have gay sex manuals for ponies, dragons, Pokemon characters, etc..

I agree that many of the hardcore slash fans are people with issues. There's a book about the first wave of fan fiction/fanzine crowd called "Enterprising Women" and while the author didn't disparage slash, she took note of what many of the fans, artists, and writers were like...a lot of lonely, obese women with man issues. When they insisted they wrote slash for feminist reasons ("I can write about equal relationships"), the author didn't quite believe them. Younger slash fans seem to think it makes them hip or something. And frankly the very young ones who write the kind of nasty stuff on WTF Fan Fiction need therapy.

[jenny-wildcat.livejournal.com]

I don't have much else to add to this other than to wholeheartedly agree with your comment and the others in this thread :)

[darth-firefly.livejournal.com]

Some people can be total dumbasses when it comes to pairings. I write slash myself - but I also write a fair amount of het. I'm already fearing the backlash I'm going to get come October with my het fic for the DeanCasBigBang - (rules state they can be close friends, so it works).

The trouble with slash is - some people refuse to anything BUT slash pairings for characters, even though there are established het relationships.

But seriously, when it comes to a fic, if you don't like the pairing or disagree with it, why bother reading? Just skip it and move on to something else.

[allisnow.livejournal.com]

When it comes to fandom stuff I'm pretty much 'whatever floats your boat', but for some reason I've had more problems with the really militant slashers than anyone else, and for exactly the reasons you mention... an inability to accept that (in most cases) these characters have very established het relationships, which often seems to turn into hate or at least animosity towards (in this case) the woman. And a lot of the time that hate is coming from fans who ARE women. It's very discouraging.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Exactly what you should've said to her.

***

And as I've said many times, this insistence on inventing homosexual relationships - even (especially?) where there's not even a hint of such a thing in the canon - is an obsession for women.

Fandom seems to be overwhelmingly populated by females, so I don't have enough information or experience to know whether the same is true for men regarding female slash.

[darth-firefly.livejournal.com]

In defense of the overwhelming urge of slash in the Supernatural fandom, it's not entirely our fault. They keep killing off the women and the writers love to egg us on with innuendo-laced lines.

[danamulder.livejournal.com]

I have been into fandom/fic for thirteen years now, and I STILL don't understand slash. EVERYTHING is slash! Guys are slash! Girls are slash! Family members are slash!

I don't read it, it never makes sense for me to invent a sexuality that in no way exists in the actual canon, and it is getting increasingly hard to find anything decent of the het variety in any fandom anywhere. And that's just sad, because I only find it believable if it's true to who they actually ARE. That's not being a prude or a homophobe, that's just common sense. If they're gay characters, they're gay, but if they're not, then why are you acting like I'm the weirdo for wanting het?

It's why I stay out of most of it these days. They can't convert me.

(And PoI is kickass, direct me to your fic?)

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

"Family members are slash!"

Yep, I've heard a few things about that from some of my friends who are "Supernatural" fans. I feel for them!

(And here it is! http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8300182/1/Vigil )

[mynuet.livejournal.com]

Your pain, I feel it.

I've long since accepted that I must be a homophobe, since I've been called it so often for asking questions like, "But why is he gay now when he wasn't in the show/book/movie?" "Why is the girl a horrendous bitch who deserves to die when she wasn't in the show/book/movie?" and, the one that really exiles me forever to the gulag of no rainbows, "Why did two gay men turn into thirteen year old girls, and when did they get self-lubricating parts installed?"

My little sister likes slash, and there's more than one non-canon pairing that I love, so I'm very much on the whatever floats your boat bandwagon (even if the amount of Captain America/Iron Man slash makes me want to hide in a corner, rocking and rewatching the movies). I've even written it myself, for gifts and exchanges. What gets me are the people who get all snotty, like slash is somehow superior. No, baby, you're exactly the same as that guy fapping to Lesbian Spank Inferno. The only difference is that, for your porn, there's occasionally someone who critiques the spelling.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

and, the one that really exiles me forever to the gulag of no rainbows, "Why did two gay men turn into thirteen year old girls, and when did they get self-lubricating parts installed?"

*dies laughing*

Please marry me. Y'know, in that non-gay way.

[neverfading.livejournal.com]

I'm back with a few additional thoughts/points/rants. All of these comments and observations come from my personal experiences in fandom:

Slash fans get very, VERY defensive, angry, and hostile when challenged, and cannot take criticism. Seriously, I have seldom seen anyone get so viciously angry and nasty over anything, online.

The loudest promoters/defenders of slash really aren't all that interested in the fandom, the characters, or even the topic of homosexuality per se. What they want is attention, and slash serves quite nicely as a hot-button issue that they can use to stir up drama.

This is something I have personally witnessed. These people really aren't very invested in the fandom or the characters, they're just looking for a way to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, so to speak. In short, they are trolls.

Making a lot of noise about slash is a convenient way to rock the boat, antagonize the more traditionalist fans, and create conflict. Again, this comes from personal exprience: I have seen people passionately promoting/defending slash, only to abandon the whole topic once they've "won" the argument.

Some people make a lot of noise about slash in an effort to seem edgy, daring, different, special, or taboo-breaking. It's like a little kid who says a swear-word for the sole purpose of getting a reaction from the adults.

Others feel that embracing slash somehow gives them the moral high-ground: They may even be self-deluded enough to feel that taking part in slash makes them some sort of activist for gay issues. It gives them something to feel self-righteous about: they're so tolerant, liberal, accepting, open-minded, progressive, et cetera, et cetera.

Whereas, people who don't like slash are basically Hitler and want to hang every gay person from the nearest lamp-post. :P

I also firmly believe that for some slashers, there is an element of being uncomfortable with sexuality and being uncomfortable with their own bodies. Hence, females who love stories in which there is no female character, no female sexuality, no female bodies. Even worse, they become outright hostile to female characters and may even voice the opinion that women are icky and disgusting. I believe there is some female self-loathing at work here. These people are emotionally immature and have issues.

I could keep writing, but this is already a very long comment. I'm aware that some people in this community write, read, and enjoy slash. There's nothing I can say to that, because that's their prerogative.

However, my personal feeling is this: slash is vile. I have seen it literally tear a small fandom apart. I don't participate in any site or community where slash is allowed or encouraged, and I don't associate with people who are heavily involved with it.

It's one of the only things in fandom that I have zero tolerance for, and one of the very few things that will get you removed from my f-list.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I have seldom seen anyone get so viciously angry and nasty over anything, online.

The rabid MSR* people in XF fandom come close!




*Mulder/Scully Relationship? Romance? Whatever.

[theidolhands.livejournal.com]

As interesting as this conversation is (truly), I didn't want to forget to acknowledge and thank your father for his service to our country as well as offer my thoughts and additional appreciation towards your parents and how they struggled afterwards; those are amazing and valuable life lessons.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I really appreciate that!

[oronoda.livejournal.com]

I believe fan fiction is in part about fantasy so you don't have to follow the rules persay. If you like the idea of two characters being together, that is your prerogative. However, when shippers want to force their OTP or ichiban on others and say all other ships are wrong, that is when there are issues.

I've seen slash pairings have completely rabid members and I have seen some het pairings (Harry/Hermione anyone? Zutara versus Kataang also have a lot of wank).

I find hardcore shippers tend to be out of touch with reality and read into things all the time and it is across the board with slash/het.

----

Anyways, as a veteran myself, I am kind of insulted by what this writer implied. Soldiers are capable of loving. And hey, if the person liked the idea of those two dudes together, more power to her. It is her fantasy. But to preach it as gospel on the basis of subtext is moronic and delusional.

[neverfading.livejournal.com]

I don't joke about people who think that incest, rape, torture, or pedophilia are sexy and exciting.

That's vile. I don't care what kind of mental contortions you put yourself through to convince yourself that being excited/entertained by incest is okay. It's not.

The fact that a mainstream TV show is encouraging this is mind-blowing.

[jdphoenix.livejournal.com]

I sped through the first few seasons of Supernatural and after that it was just too boring to wait on new episodes so I can't say my falling out with the show was entirely because of how they enjoy poking fandom like this, but it certainly makes me happy I fell out. (That plus the way female characters are written out as quickly as they appear.)

I actually blocked "cest" on tumblr just because of this. I don't care if the post is totally platonic and people are just tagging it "wincest" to be cute, it's really not.

[neverfading.livejournal.com]

Can I take this opportunity to say that I find all of these fandom terms and acronyms like "shipping", "pairing", "OTP" silly, tiresome, and annoying? 'Cause I do. A ship is a large boat. Use real words, people. I dunno, those terms just sound so goofy, to me.

I also don't use the abbreviation "het." It's flippant and dismissive and implies that heterosexuality is merely one "flavor" among many, which is not my worldview. If it's offensive to say "homo", then it's offensive to say "het."

A relationship between a male and a female is the only type of sexual/romantic relationship that I'm interested in reading about, therefore phrases like "het romance" and "het relationship" are redundant, to me.

EDIT: Oops, I'm being "heteronormative." Damn right, I am.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

A ship is a large boat.

Sorry, that cracked me up!

Fandom tends to become a sort of code, so it's just easier to use the abbreviations.

I think X-Files fandom originated (or at leeast popularized) the term "shipping/shipper", so I apologize for that.

But don't blame me. I watched this show BECAUSE it had zero romance. Silly me.

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

Ugh, good luck bursting the bubble of a deluded slasher. I've been chewed out for criticizing slash. Someone on my f-list was called a homophobe some years ago because she posted that there are characters who are undeniably heterosexual and therefore, putting them in a slash relationship wasn't plausible.

Slashers have an answer for everything. If a character is in love with a woman in canon, well, he must be either a closet case or bisexual. If he's not with anyone, well, it's because he's gay. There are only gay or bi characters. There are no characters who are hetero or even asexual.

[neemarita.livejournal.com]

I remember seeing tons of Anakin/Obi-Wan slash. No. Just. NO.

[brendala.livejournal.com]

1. As the daughter of a Vietnam vet who's soon to celebrate his 46th wedding anniversary, I can tell you firsthand that her characterization of soldiers and their relationships is so much horse hockey. My dad had his share of traumatic experiences, and it was really hard on both my parents, but by the grace of God (as they both put it) they made it. So have millions of other military couples. And police couples, for that matter. It's an insult to say it's not possible.

God Bless your dad and all his awesomeness.

I get the feeling that that particular writer saw some article about how a lot of police/military couples struggle to stay together and cope with PTSD and just assumed that it's the case for ALL police/military couples. I also think it's safe to assume that she doesn't personally know any married vets.


"I am a staunch Finch/Reese person. With their experiences & personalities, a normal boy/girl relationship for more than a night isn't likely - sort of PTSD for soldiers or the way long term police are..it's hard to get close to them."

This makes no sense! If a soldier struggles to have a functional romantic relationship with a girl because of his PTSD, than I think it's safe to assume that those same issues would also doom any romantic relationship with a man. If mental issues like that could be solved by simply batting for the other team, than a LOT more people would be gay.

[oronoda.livejournal.com]

I think that would actually offend many homosexual people, also, in addition to soldiers/police who suffer from PTSD. Overall, it is such an ignorant comment.

[jenny-wildcat.livejournal.com]

This is why I don't "ship" characters other than what's established in canon. It's just better than wading into that pile of manure.

(And that broad characterization of soldiers with PTSD just goes to prove the anon had no idea what they were even talking about. Seriously.)

[jacobs-muse.livejournal.com]

Ugh, the wonders of reviews.

I've written for the BTVS and Angel-the-show fandoms. And one Smallville short fic. We had some amazing ugliness in shipper wars for BTVS. Fanfic writers seem to want to put Spike with anyone/anything because James Marsters can have chemistry with a door, but oy vey is it annoying to have it pushed in your face. The only slash that's sorta canon for Spike is with Angelus, but even that's reaching.

I'm not into slash and especially not into turning het characters gay, or real-person fics. Stuff some people write about.....scary. I've seen American Idol fic (wth) that's just gross and so wrong and don't get me started on Supernatural fandom. I love the show, but those fangirls are nuts.

[animenutcase.livejournal.com]

In the girl's defense, she didn't say it was impossible, just unlikely. Still pretty rude, though.

And finally, what is with people who aren't just content to make up their own slash, but have to go around telling writers of relationships established by the show that they're wrong??

Ha! You should have seen the Avatar: The Last Airbender fandom! I wasn't even in the ATLA fandom back then, the ship wars were that infamous.

Me, I'll admit that I'm a shipper. I'll ship almost anything (key word: almost. Even I have to have standards, after all). I think people should ship whatever pairings they like as long as they aren't dicks about it, to other people or to the characters.

[neverfading.livejournal.com]

As I reflect on this discussion, here's another thing:

I've encountered a lot of people who dislike slash but cite reasons other than the simple fact that slash is all about homosexuality.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike slash, and many of them have been mentioned here: it's silly, it's unrealistic, it goes against canon, its fans are over-zealous and nutty, et cetera.

Those are all valid reasons to dislike slash, but I have no qualms at all about saying that I dislike slash because it normalizes and celebrates homosexuality.

There have been 109 replies to this post, and some excellent points have been made all around, but IIRC no one has taken the stance that slash is objectionable for the simple reason that it glorifies homosexuality.

When I see people in fandom discussing their dislike of slash, I'm reminded of that Seinfeld episode where everyone was so eager to declare "...Not that there's anything wrong with it!!"

"I don't like slash...not that there's anything wrong with it!!!" is not my approach to this issue.

Rabid slash-fans and other assorted trolls and trouble-makers are counting on the fact that other people are too afraid of "offending" them to say anything.

I find slash strongly objectionable because I do not view homosexuality as something to be embraced and celebrated. It's that simple, and I certainly don't apologize for holding that view and stating that view plainly.

I find it hard to believe that so many people would dislike slash so strongly for peripheral reasons like "it's silly" or "it's non-canon."

EDIT: In a nutshell, I doubt this discussion would have reached 109 comments if we were discussing something like non-canon heterosexual couples, or something else that is non-canon, like, say, "A Harry Potter world without magic..." or "What if The Office didn't take place in an office??"

I do not find it believable that all of the reasons for disliking slash have nothing whatsoever to do with what slash is. It's disingenous to assert that disliking slash has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. I dislike slash because of what slash is, not for various tangential reasons.