(no subject)

[akilika.livejournal.com]

*sigh* The Dumbing of Age comment boards have been... interesting, lately. See, one character--the sister of a congresswoman--has put out a sex tape, and seems to be using it as a platform to prove that people shouldn't judge folks for engaging in sexual freedom.

I think it's mostly a couple of firebrands who are driving the discussion, but... well, it seems really weird, what level the discussion is taking place on.

Like, judging anybody for any sexual behavior is just plain bad. And tantamount to removing their freedom of sexual expression. (Lots and lots and LOTS of conflating of the legal right to engage in an activity and the social "right" not to be judged for it.)

Slut-shaming is one of the worst things you can do to a girl.

If you don't like sex tapes, don't watch them (and, unspoken extension, don't talk about them.) Because it's not like it was being reported in the school newspaper or anything.

Also, while it's horrible to name-call folks who engage in promiscuous behavior, it's quite all right to mock them for being prudish.

Suggesting that, if your freedom of sexual expression is your most important priority in the world, that's misguided and destructive--that makes you a misogynist.



And I find it really strange to find myself on the side of the debate I'm on, because I don't actually oppose girls sleeping with whoever they want with whatever accoutrements they want while pretending whatever they want to pretend. I just have the apparently really out-there belief that bedroom things are best kept private between the participants. (Hey, GREAT way not to be judged--don't put it out in front of everyone! What a concept...)

(Also, that being shamed for your sexual behavior is by no means the worst thing that can happen to you. Seriously, WTF?)


And it occurs to me that I've been seeing this stuff *everywhere*, though not as virulent. Sluttiness is not something to oppose--nay, it's something to encourage! A girl's sexual free expression is paramount, and she should enjoy it often and with many partners--and anyone who says otherwise is a misogynist and a slut-shamer who was better not walking this earth.


And if it's this irritating for me, I have to wonder where it puts the sex-should-be-only-within-marriage crowd. Because... well, you're being treated as EVIL without even a passing thought, and this is only the latest stage in an apparent effort to tear down everything you guys stand for. That's had a remarkable success rate so far.


In short, I... really don't know.

Comments

[zansa-san.livejournal.com]

Okay, seriously ... what the hell does the phrase "sexual expression" even mean? Why do people feel the need to "express" themselves "sexually?" Why would you want people to know every intimate detail of your sex life? It's not their business, and, quite frankly, 9 time out of 10, they don't want to know.

Even a hot-n-heavy public make-out session makes me squick. Seriously - I just do not want. *sigh*

[akilika.livejournal.com]

Truth be told, I'm not really clear on that, either. -_-

[neemarita.livejournal.com]

This.

Also, slut shaming? What is that? Some new made up word by the uber-left?

[kali-kali.livejournal.com]

There are several different branches to what "slut shaming" means.

On the one branch, there's making people feel ashamed for their sexual choices.

On the other, is calling people "sluts" for things that aren't their fault, such as getting raped or assaulted, and the man's excuse being something like "the way the woman was dressed meant that he couldn't help himself and just had to force himself on her" or something like that. It happens more often than one might think, and judges have thrown cases out of court because of such excuses made by the accused. Not to mention cases where the accused is found guilty, but still treated well by the community, and the victim is expected to shut up and have it all swept under the rug.

[blondebaroness.livejournal.com]

Didn't you forget the narrow minded, right winged, hater, Christian fundie.... /sarcasm.

Yeah. I'm doing the sex-is-for-marriage the second time around. My fiance and I are celibate. People have asked him if he is a homosexual because we're not doing it like wild animals. Sheesh! Just because we are both on second marriages, doesn't mean that chastity goes out the window.

[hannahsarah.livejournal.com]

Eeeee! Good for you. :-) My husband and I did the same thing, and let me tell you, it was SO worth it.

I had a very wild and varied secular life before I became religious, and by choosing to wait, not only did I get a fresh start, I truly felt that I'd finally been forgiven by G-d.

Congratulations on your engagement, I wish you all the best. :-D

[mynuet.livejournal.com]

I've never understood the idea that there is simultaneously nothing to be ashamed of in being a slut, and a need to make sure that no one is ever called a slut for, well, being slutty. Either you're proud of sleeping around or you're not, y'know? It's not Society's issue.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Does that mean I can sue stubborn women for their oppressive, OPPRESSIVE I SAY, refusal to "get jiggy" with me?

[fi-harkness.livejournal.com]

You made me snort soda up my nose.

*giggles* jiggy.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Judging anyone for any sexual behavior is considered bad in today's insane society. Unless...

And if it's this irritating for me, I have to wonder where it puts the sex-should-be-only-within-marriage crowd.

... unless you happen to be one of those old fashioned, bigoted, repressive, evil prudes who believes sex should be only between one man, one woman, and within a monogamous marriage relationship.

Then all bets are off and you will be called every name in the book.

***

All of this is nonsense. What these advocates of sexual "freedom" want is not just the freedom to whatever they want. They already have that. What they want is to silence those who disagree with their life choices, even if that disagreement only goes as far as simply saying, "I disagree with this behavior" but nowhere advocates stopping consenting adults from doing whatever they want. What they want is to have their behavior accepted and celebrated in society, and anyone who doesn't agree they want silenced by social pressure. Or even legal action, when possible.

THAT is what they want.

[hannahsarah.livejournal.com]

Once again, you've nailed it precisely on the head.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

"And if it's this irritating for me, I have to wonder where it puts the sex-should-be-only-within-marriage crowd. Because... well, you're being treated as EVIL without even a passing thought, and this is only the latest stage in an apparent effort to tear down everything you guys stand for."

Yeah, well, we're kind of used to it. :-) But thanks for the sympathy.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

This has me a bit annoyed. (http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/judge/) I'm always struck by how judgmental the "don't judge me" crowd is.

[akilika.livejournal.com]

I hear you. We get a lot of talk about how the problem with the prudes is how self-righteous they are... when Roz is the most self-righteous character in the strip, near as I can tell! WTF?

[acadecalli.livejournal.com]

What really horrifies me are the comments that mention that with the advent of artificial insemination, the ONLY purpose for sex is fun. Ummmm, what???

As a scientist, I believe in evolution (I also believe that a higher power created this world, and I find those two beliefs to fit together nicely, but that's a whole other issue). I am assuming most of these posters who are advocating sex free-for-alls also believe in evolution. I would like to point out to them that, from an evolutionary standpoint fun sex -> more sex -> more babies -> species survival. That is, sex is fun specifically to lead to more pregnancies. If sex was not enjoyable, the species would die off. Look at pandas. They are basically extinct primarily because they refuse to mate with one another.

Also, the idea that championing recreational, casual sex as a suitable lifestyle for everyone is somehow admirable is appalling. Did any of these posters read "Brave New World"? If so, I think they missed the point.

And while the libertarian in me believes that consenting adults should be able to do as they please, I also understand that this means that others should be allowed to judge them for their actions if they so chose. My disapproval of casual sex does not stop anyone else from having casual sex. If my expression of disapproval makes someone so upset, maybe he or she was not too pleased with his or her choices to begin with. If someone is totally comfortable with their sexual behavior, what I say should not make a difference.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

If my expression of disapproval makes someone so upset, maybe he or she was not too pleased with his or her choices to begin with. If someone is totally comfortable with their sexual behavior, what I say should not make a difference.

Darn, this is an excellent point!

*notes*

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Imma just leave this here... (http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/08/09/deconstructing-slutwalk/)

[archerstar.livejournal.com]

Except, no, because it seems to be operating under the belief that no one blames the victim anymore in our society and that's essentially a bald-faced lie. Let's take the argument on page 3, referring to lawyers. Sure, the lawyers who use this tactic are scumbags, but it wouldn't work if the jury didn't believe it as well. If everyone who listed to these accusations went 'no, that's not how it is at all', rapists wouldn't get free. But they do. Constantly. So someone (i.e., the jury) obviously believes it, too. She dressed provocatively, therefore it wasn't rape because she wanted it is a tactic that works.

I mean, I agree that the way slutwalks can't seem to decide if slut is a term to reclaim or a term that should be eliminated is confusing, but that doesn't change the fact that dressing in a certain way should never be an invitation for rapists. Showing off your body is not consent.

This is also pretty offensive.
The only person at SlutWalk who really seemed fully committed to the principle of anti-looksism was this Planned Parenthood canvasser, who had the genetic raw material to be a runway model if she wanted — tall, slender, perfectly symmetrical face, etc. — but chose to reject all that and instead purposely uglified herself by shaving off all her hair and joining an abrasive political group. Kudos for true dedication! If you got it, don’t flaunt it.
It almost enforces the societal belief that if you make yourself ugly, if you don't look like a woman, no one will want to touch you. Mission fucking accomplished, right? I don't want to be raped, so instead of doing something about the rapists, I should change myself so no one will look at me without cringing. This is the message that passage sends.

I'm not saying I agree with what slutwalks stand for, or that the people there don't send some very confusing messages, but the principle behind them is one I'm very much for. Rape is rape, no matter what you're wearing, what you were drinking, what you may have said to a guy last week.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Oh, those stupid slutwalk protests! I'd heard the term but it took me quite a while before I was able to view accounts of them. It was Zombie's that I saw.

Talk about a completely incoherent premise.

These women don't want to be called sluts if they sleep around, because 'slut' is understood to be a very derogatory term. Ok, fine. If they'd left it at that it would at least make some sense.

But then they turn around say that 'slut' should be a positive term and therefore they should not only be proud of the behavior, but of being called that negative word because... it's not really negative? Or it should be changed to a positive term? But it's not a positive term. And you can't just change the definition of words on a whim, just because you feel like it! I don't know how their heads don't explode with contradiction of it all.

Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of women who get so drunk that they don't even remember having sex at all, much less with whom (or even how many men!) and then they blame it entirely on the men, as though they are not remotely at fault.

Personal responsibility. Learn it.

[whak-hat.livejournal.com]

Oh stupid people. It seems we're all for bowing down throwing away all our progress for the sake of 'culture' and 'personal expression'.

Did it occur to ANY of these women that the only people who gain anything from these sex tapes of 'sexual freedom' are perverted men who don't give two shits about anyone and are just happy for all the girls who are providing their masturbation material.

This is NOT sexual liberty people. Sexual liberty is the right to have sex with a partner that is CONSENTING. Whether that is the same gender or the opposite. Key note: Consenting, this dis-includes children, people with the inability to think for themselves (for whatever reason) animals or dead people. Sorry, none of these things can consent and having sex with them makes diseases/ruins lives.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting and helpful conversation. I appreciate that you brought the topic up, akilika.

[so-sporktastic.livejournal.com]

I disagree with the concept of "sexual freedom" and "sexual expression" mostly because people look at the short-term act without considering the long-term consequences. Talk to a girl who was just exercising her "right to sexual expression" and now has a child she's raising on her own, or someone who believes that his/her "right" means that they don't have to use birth control if they don't want to, so they are either getting abortions left and right, or they have a bunch of kids out there that they don't support.

BTDT. Never again.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

I am torn. I certainly do enjoy the sluttiness of the FreeLoveFuture (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FreeLoveFuture) in which we currently live. However, it is pretty obvious that as a societal model, it isn't working out at all.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

If you want to see an example of the "slut shaming" accusation, go to the comment section here.

http://mommyish.com/pregnancy-health/how-my-abortion-enabled-me-to-be-a-better-mother-647/

(I'm in the comment section as "GRD." You'll note that I got slammed for sharing my sister's story of choosing life for her son. Don't you love liberal tolerance and logic? :-) )

[akilika.livejournal.com]

That's one of the things that's getting me here, I'll admit. It's mentioned that slut shaming is when a woman is blamed for being raped, but in the comments to the comic I posted... no mention of rape. In the comments to the article you've posted... rape is mentioned, but only after the so-named slut-shaming has taken place.

It seems pretty obvious to me that slut shaming does not merely mean blaming women for being raped--it also means judging people for their sexual behavior in general. And from there, much of the anti-slut-shaming arguments lose their power.

(It's like feminism. The feminists try to claim that being against feminism means you believe that women should be treated as their husband's property and be held unequal under the law--that, in fact, if you believe these things to be wrong, you're a feminist. Neatly ignoring all of the *other* stuff that goes along with the name... which they will be happy to apply to you.)

(It really does seem like the same argument.)