London burning

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

The decline of Britain these days is breaking my heart, almost as much as the mess that America is getting itself into. And now this: "London riots escalate as police battle for control."

I can only hope that maybe this will finally, FINALLY convince them that their police need to be equipped and ready to do some actual police work. How long can a country believe that all it needs to do is stand around and say, "Oh dear, what a spot of bother" until things right themselves? If this disaster can convince the British that they need to get rid of the soft and comfy nanny state, quit raising a nation of spoiled entitled brats, and start turning out responsible citizens instead . . . maybe all this won't have been in vain.

Comments

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

I am typing this on me cellie, so sorry for any errors. From my understanding, the riots BEGUN because an officer was improperly armed and shot a guy he had pulled over. The officer/police say that the guy shot first, but the facts are still blurred from my understanding of reading an article a few days ago. It is a police said vs. People said...and with the officer having and using his own weapon as an officer it makes things even more murky. I am not on either side at this point, but just stating that this whole thing started because an officer was armed.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

You're right to raise the issue of how it all started. Here's an article about it: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-crucial-question-should-police-have-shot-mark-duggan-2334133.html

My question is more along the lines of, now that this HAS happened, how can these mobs be stopped from turning it into an excuse to steal and destroy? How can police and the government handle it on the macro level, so to speak?

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

I can sincerely say, I don't know how the police should respond now that the situation has escalated.

What I do not think will help at this moment is arming the police. It is extremely poor timing and in my opinion will only aggravate the situation even further. In the minds of the mob, the officers being armed "killed" an "innocent" man. (Since even in the article you referred to it did not confirm that Duggan had fired shots on the officers. Just that he had connections to a gang and was in possession of a modified weapon that could fire live rounds.)

I believe in private gun ownership and have thought for YEARS that the police not being armed is ridiculous, but at this point arming them would look very poor and probably encourage incidents later on, giving them a reason to lash out.

I'm not advocating for peace talks either...so maybe dart guns with tranquilizers will be the most helpful thing right now. *sigh* This is just a big mess...

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Again, I see your point, and I want to clarify that I'm not talking about getting all the officers together and randomly tossing out guns. :-) I'm talking about the nation opening its eyes to the need for a properly equipped and prepared police force and taking steps in that direction. We're on the same page here.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Wait, the police are unarmed?!

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think they have like pepper spray and stun guns, but that's about it. It's really sad...

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

ICON WIN!!!

***

How utterly insane. I remember seeing that on the program 'Life On Mars' and being STUNNED. But I didn't know if it was something based in reality at that time (the 70s) or just made up for the show. I certainly didn't know it's how things are now!

Where to go from here? Unless the criminals wear themselves out and stop on their own, there is no place to go from here, other than to send in the military to try and restore order.

Melanie Phillips has a good article on it. This poor woman. She's watching as her country and culture goes absolutely insane:

http://melaniephillips.com/london-descends-into-anarchy

[autumnjoy.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize it was currently the case until I watched an episode of the British show "Vexed." And even then I still looked it up because I couldn't believe that was actually how it was. I'm the first one to complain about the local small town cops in my county and the power trip a lot of them seem to be on, but still, that struck me as stunningly stupid. You don't give someone the responsibility of enforcing law and maintaining order without giving them a way to defend themselves when lawlessness strikes back!

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

The only good thing that could come out of this mess is that they reconsider their system and start making changes. But then... that's of no use right at this moment, you know? This nightmare was just waiting to happen, for whatever reasons.

It's horrifying! I can't imagine being in the middle of that. Nothing to do but barricade yourself inside your home. And hope that no one decides to break in, or burn it for fun.

:::shudder:::

[neemarita.livejournal.com]

Yup. Guns are illegal there.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

Truly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

[neemarita.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I am pretty sure the police don't carry guns, so they can't defend themselves. It's such a mess.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing. The proximate cause is *never* the real reason that things get started. The real reason is that there are hordes of very very angry people looking for an opportunity to loot and pillage. The guy getting shot created *just* enough chaos, to draw some of them out. Since the police were not armed, they couldn't stop it from snowballing into *this*. And the looters *knew* the capabilities of the police, that's why they were confident enough to throw the first molotov.

This guy that got shot is irrelovent, it might not be today, but these riots might as well have been written in the book of fate, *something* was going to trigger them with that populace and those police.

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

This seems to be a gang related incident, so the shooting/death is definitely only an excuse to create havoc in London. I completely believe that if the officers were trained properly and armed before this incident this would NOT be happening. However, with the emasculated police officers and an angry mob of people who don't care about following the law, you are correct that it was going to happen at some point. This entire thing is ridiculous and is hopefully showing the London authorities how not giving your officers ANY authority ruins the point of laws being in place.

[kali-kali.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'm pretty sure most of the people who are doing the rioting and looting don't even know that man's name.

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

I lived in Miami during the Liberty City riots in 1980. What stopped them was the Florida National Guard. The local cops were overwhelmed and given the whole thing started after some Miami cops were acquitted of murdering a motorcyclist, they weren't too keen to run in and save the neighborhood from itself. I would send in the military to quash the riots and then I would retrain the police to handle violent situations, including giving them weapons.

The London riots and the clusterfark way the Oslo police handled the recent shooting show that the problems with a police force that are more like cruise directors than actual keepers of law and order.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

"approach and repeat in an even firmer tone of voice, add OR ELSE."

Demolition man, 1993.

[kimana83.livejournal.com]

Win.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

This graphic would be hilarious if it weren't so sadly true:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/08/08/big-daddy-cameron

(I got that from the liberal board I go to, where even THEY are now calling for arming the police. It's been fascinating to watch.)

[neemarita.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Cameron would go for it. He is a Conservative but, of course, there's a coalition government with the Lib Dems. I doubt their government can get ANYTHING done, though the Conservatives over there are still awfully liberal!

[modernelegance.livejournal.com]

The one surprising/good thing that I see, is that unlike other countries (Iran) England has not shut twitter down in the name of "public safety". Although many are blaming the social network, the same thing could have been organized over text messages so it's ridiculous IMO to blame twitter.

Anyways, IDK why that thought just occurred to me, and it may be a stupid one, but at least England isn't there yet.