The Right Fangirl

I think when discussed here in the past, it always boils down to the perspective the Muslim takes in reading the Qur'an. However, when this is happening in an area where Christians are very much a minority and they face violence from extremists it's very interesting to me.

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Historically speaking, they are both religions born out of the Middle East so the cultural make-up would be similar. However, I believe the heart of each religion is different which I think is the biggest contrast. (I'm not prepared to discuss/debate right now why they are/aren't similar so I'm going to leave it at that.)

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What a perfect illustration of the difference between these two religions! (Although I do hope these Christians are aware of the hatred taught in the Koran about them, and about all unbelievers.)

Still, this is what Christians do. This is who we are. This is what Christianity teaches.

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They had cross tattoos (a Coptic tradition) right below their palm, a friend has a close up, i will share soon.

I did not know of this tradition! I would love to see that. Will do a Google search, as I assume it can be found.

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I am an Orthodox Christian (catechumen at the moment), so I am not surprised to find my Coptic brethren doing this.

However, I will say that there were reports of Muslims standing outside of Coptic churches in Egypt soon after the bombings in order to try and protect them as they prayed.

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That's good to hear.

Alas, it does not erase the fact that these two religions teach diametrically opposed things. It does not change the fact that these Christians are behaving in accordance with what their religion teaches, while those Muslims you refer to were behaving against what their religion teaches.

This is an important distinction to be made. And yet my experience has been that even many Christians outright refuse to make it.

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I believe the traditional view of Islam is that it is actually a Christian heresy - that Islam took much from Christian belief and doctrine, as well as Jewish and pagan beliefs. As such, I do not find it hard to believe that a kernel of Christian love has infected Islam through that influence, just as the Christian worldview of old Europe is actually the basis of even modern atheistic morality.

Not to mention that, in my personal opinion, very few people actually live their lives in accordance with what their religion teaches. You can see that in the Christian denominations who have little knowledge of the traditions of the Church and the holy lives of the saints, and who have competing and opposed doctrines from each other. A Christian must answer the question of what their own religion teaches before examining the teachings of heresies and other religions.

That Muslims show love is not that they are behaving against what their religion teaches, but that God has reached their soul with his Love. We should rejoice in this, and pray that their love for their neighbor blossoms into love for the True God.

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I completely agree with your comment. AMEN!

A Christian must answer the question of what their own religion teaches before examining the teachings of heresies and other religions.
Not only that, but also does their own life contradict what is taught.

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that Islam took much from Christian belief and doctrine, as well as Jewish and pagan beliefs.

Yes, that is true. Since Islam came after Judaism and Christianity, many of the accounts were borrowed. Not to mention twisted from their original meanings.

That Muslims show love is not that they are behaving against what their religion teaches, but that God has reached their soul with his Love. We should rejoice in this, and pray that their love for their neighbor blossoms into love for the True God.

It's great that they are doing this. And of course God can and does work in people's hearts in this way. God can indeed be using this terrible situation to build relationships and change lives.

But my point is not what individual Muslims do. My point is what Islam teaches. The reality is that there are three options for unbelievers like you and like me. We must 1) convert, 2) be subjugated under sharia law or 3) be killed. Therefore, these Muslims ARE indeed behaving in direct opposition to what their religion teaches.

I'm not sure why this simple fact keeps getting sidetracked and the focus put upon this or that individual Muslim or group of them. If you read what their book has to say about unbelievers - especially Jews - you would be horrified.

My experience has been that Christians, especially, absolutely refuse to face this, as if doing so is somehow mean or unloving toward the actual persons themselves. It is not. It's simple fact.

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Just FYI, I have taken classes on Islam, so I *do* know what Islam teaches, including the belief in the inferiority of nonbelievers.

However, if you study Islam you will also find that there are sects of Islam just as there are sects of Christianity. I read some Islamic religious poetry that could easily have been written by Christians.

As you notice in an above comment, I mentioned I am a catechumen in the Orthodox church. One of the reasons I left Protestantism is the single-minded focus so many Protestants have when it comes to the Bible - that it only matters what the Bible says, as opposed to what the Church teaches. Books can be made to say whatever you want them to say - it is more important how people *act* on what the Bible (or the Koran) says. The Christian Church has always taught that sacrificial love of ones neighbor is one of the highest callings. Early Islam was spread by the sword, but some sects of Islam rejected that teaching. Not enough, not *nearly* enough, but it is as impossible to lump Suffis and Shias together as it is Orthodox and non-denominational megachurches.

Our own Old Testament says to eject the non-believer from the community, and calls for the stoning of adulterers. What mattered more was the interpretation, particularly the revelation of Christ and how His disciples interpreted His words.

So, to answer your comment, yes those Muslims may be acting in direct opposition to what their religion in the form of a particular sect teaches. They may be acting in direct opposition to a certain interpretation of the Qu'ran. Or they may be acting in perfect concert with what another sect of Islam teaches, or what their personal interpretation of the Qu'ran teaches. I don't know their hearts, you don't know their hearts. We don't know what they've been taught. We cannot judge them based on what we believe the Qu'ran teaches them, just as anti-Christian atheists should not judge Christians based on what they say the Bible teaches (i.e., the tired arguments that St. Paul taught misogyny and that Christians are hypocrites because the Old Testament has laws against eating shrimp).

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And just for the record, I am not defending Islam or the Muslims who are persecuting Christians (and others) around the world. I am saying it is dangerous to paint all Muslims with the same brush and that we act like Christians - love our neighbors, even if our neighbors persecute us.

St. Moses the Black was a robber who was given shelter at a monastery and converted to Christianity due to the monks kindness, despite his evil deeds and beliefs. Later, he would refuse to take up arms against Berber bandits and was martyred when he welcomed the invaders into the monastery, though many other monks fled. His whole life was changed because those monks at Scetes showed him love, while the robbers who killed him were not moved by the same kindness. We can never know if a Muslim taught hatred and violence from birth will suddenly convert to Christianity when shown Christian love, but it for us Christians to love them regardless.

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We can never know if a Muslim taught hatred and violence from birth will suddenly convert to Christianity when shown Christian love, but it for us Christians to love them regardless

Thank you not only for this statement but for both comments. I am in complete agreement.

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Our own Old Testament says to eject the non-believer from the community, and calls for the stoning of adulterers. What mattered more was the interpretation, particularly the revelation of Christ and how His disciples interpreted His words.

Nonsense. It's not about "interpretation", as though you can make words say whatever you wish. The OT Law was for the Jews of that time, and for a very specific purpose - the establishment of the nation of Israel and the coming of Christ. Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies and established the New Covenant. This is basic bible knowledge. Your repeating of the same thing the Muslim apologists say is frustrating, to put it mildly.

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I am so weary of hearing Islam and Christianity mentioned in the same breath and compared, as though they teach more or less the same things. The most horrifying thing is when professing Christians do it. And this in front of others who may not be Christians at all, thereby making an already complex and confusing issue even more so.

I will never comprehend why people - especially those who profess the name of Christ - continue to defend and excuse an ideology that not only explicitly denies every foundational tenet of our faith, from the divinity of Christ to His salvation, but also mandates the conversion, subjugation or death of not only them but every other human being on the planet.

It's baffling and maddening.

You are free to believe whatever you like. I'm sorry, but I no longer have the patience for this.

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I am not familiar with you, so I don't know if you're a member/visitor or simply someone looking to stir up conflict. I apologize for saying this, but there have been plenty of the latter lately, so that is why I have to ask. It takes some effort to discuss complicated and important issues like this. Sadly, I have found myself so often wasting my time with people who don't have any intention of reading and honestly considering any information I may provide.

If you're sincerely wanting discussion, I am happy to do that.

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You're not rude at all. I am just covering my bases. Like I said, I've had some... let's call them, less-than-productive exchanges both here and elsewhere.

I'll get something together later today, tomorrow @ latest.

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oronoda.livejournal.com

This is random but that icon is just so friggin adorable

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I've been doing a good bit of reading the past couple of days on this. One thing to remember is the Islamic principle of abrogation, which means that verses that were "revealed" to Mohammad earlier were canceled out/replaced by verses revealed later.

What a coincidence that the more peaceful ones were the ones revealed earlier, and the violent ones are the ones revealed later.

If you read the Koran you will be shocked at the seeming obsession that Mohammad had with the Jews, Christians, and unbelievers in general. (But especially the Jews.)

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Here is a good summary of this particular passage. (Links in the original.)

Blogging the Qur'an (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/06/blogging-the-quran-sura-2-the-cow-verses-40-75.html)

It may seem jarring that immediately following this* comes one of the Qur’an’s “tolerance verses,” verse 62, which seems to promise a place in Paradise to “those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians.” Muhammad Asad exults: “With a breadth of vision unparalleled in any other religious faith, the idea of ‘salvation’ is here made conditional upon three elements only: belief in God, belief in the Day of Judgment, and righteous action in life.” Not, apparently, acceptance of Islam. But he contradicts himself by adding “in this divine writ” after the words “those who have attained to faith” in his translation of verse 62 – that is, to be saved, one must believe in the Qur’an as well as the earlier revelations. And indeed, Muslim commentators are not inclined to see this as an indication of divine pluralism. The translators Ali and Pickthall, as well as Asad, all feel it necessary to add parenthetical glosses that make the passage mean that Jews and Christians (as well as Sabians, whose identity is disputed) will be saved only if they become Muslims. And according to Ibn Abbas, this verse was abrogated by Qur’an 3:85: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).” Qutb opines that 2:62 applied only before Muhammad brought Islam to the world, a view supported by a saying of Muhammad recorded by Tabari, in which the Prophet of Islam says that Christians who died before his coming will be saved, but those who have heard of him and yet rejected his prophetic claim will not be.

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* v. 61 (re: the Jews)

And remember ye said: "O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions." He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.

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I am not clear on your point here. Islam and Judaism/Christianity teach diametrically opposed things. As to your point, all religions claim they are the right way. Christianity is no different in that respect. Your comparing it to Islam on that particular basis is so odd that I don't even know where to go with it.

But you know what? You are free to believe whatever you like. There's no way you had the time to read all I wrote and go back to the Koran and find all the verses referring to unbelievers, especially Jews and see what it teaches.

You have your mind made up that Islam & Christianity teach more or less the same things, and that's that. Nothing I say is going to sway you. I should've known that from the start. Goodbye.

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